I wish it wasn't so difficult to step outside of a marriage. I fully understand jealousy, but I was dying inside before I cheated, and there was no way we were going to have "that" discussion. I've picked the path I've picked and I will pay for it if I have to. I do regret not being able to do it openly.
Fraught as it is with a number of different land mines, my partner and I have (very) briefly discussed the possibility, whether as a return to swinging, basic ENM, or outright polyamory. In that (very) brief exchange, she immediately went to Boundaryville in such a way as to preserve the slight tilt-in-her-favor of our power dynamic. Essentially, as she has done with so many such ideas, she reduced the notion to a financial issue.
A little prequel: I am currently unemployed , and not for lack of trying; when I bitched about it and confessed to being ashamed of it, my partner said, "Stop the shaming. Declare yourself semi-retired, and just find a job, even part-time, just to get out of the house and help with the bills."
And now, back to the (very) brief discussion:
When I asked about non-monogamy, she replied,"Given how we met (on a swinger site), I have no problem with it; but you can't do it with my resources."
Knowing that we live in a community-property State, I said, "Don't you mean *our* resources?"
"I'm not going to pay for you to go out on any dates, no more than you would you help pay for me to sleep with another man. You'll have to find a job to make it happen."
In a later, (much) more heated exchange, she revisited that statement, calling the underlying idea "disgusting"---she used the word three times at once.
Let's unpack this:
1. In almost every other situation, her go-to phrase is "It all comes out of the same pocket." Apparently, that is not so universal.
2. If we proceeded with ENM, her paramour might likely be the one buying dinner or the hotel room. One of our rules would be "no overnights." Regardless, I would, without heartburn, be amenable to shelling out whatever might (within reason) be necessary for her rendezvous, as a way of supporting that upon which we decided to embark.
3. Although she emphasizes her lack of sexual desire toward *anyone*, this puts her in the "catbird seat," a position of potential advantage. She can go galavanting here and there, while I stay at home and wait for a hiring, regardless of whether I can find a date.
I have to ask your opinion: is it truly "disgusting," or is she seeking a means to nip the idea in the bud?
This is a complicated story here, Richard. I'm not sure it's my place to judge. However, since you're asking, I can see how your wife could have a problem with you spending her income on your dates with other women.
However, it also shows just how much your relationship with your wife has broken down. Like you said, in a marriage, the income is the communal property of both partners. So her income is not "her" money, but both of yours.
But the fact that she sees her income as only hers shows that there is a serious breakdown in the relationship.
Also, that you two are no longer intimate, and so many other problems you face--I'm not sure why you two stay together.
But even as I say this, I understand why people in unhappy marriages do stay together. I've been writing a lot about this lately. I get the advantages to staying together. A lot of them are financial.
But I think that avoiding the pain of a divorce is also bad for the psyche. I'm just not sure that opening your marriage will make things any better. I'm not sure that things will get better for you at all until you simply end this bad dynamic and move on.
If I've overstepped my boundaries here, I'm sorry. But this is my opinion. Sending a hug.
Last night and this morning I tried to explain my wish for us to return to ENM, in whichever form we found agreeable. The "we" aspect imploded right away. She was under the impression we were to discuss our continuing efforts to enjoy sex in a way that doesn't challenge our aging bodies; she felt blindsided by the ENM subject, albeit I'm not responsible for her presumptions. Let's just say the conversation headed sideways very quickly.
I tried to clarify everything this morning. My main thesis is "I am going to have a sex life, preferably with you, but I will have one nonetheless; the clock is ticking and I'm not getting any younger." In other words, we had her 12 years of celibacy and it ends now. *Now* she says she doesn't want us to be "that forlorn old couple" at swinger events and clubs, looking for hookups and sticking out like a pair of sore thumbs. That's an extrapolation on her part fueled by two (count 'em!) examples of mid-70-ish couples where the female half was a vivacious grandmother, and her husband was a cross between Pa Kettle and the poster guy for Dirty Old Men, trying to look a hunky version of Colonel Sanders. I chose not to respond directly to that because her statistical stretches like that one only lead down yet another rabbit hole.
In her libido-less condition, looking ahead is a fool's errand; all I wanted was to get a sense of her take on the idea of either returning to swinging (12 years is enough time to get over whatever happened before) and/or seeing other people. I've read the articles about how such a practice can (counterintuitively) deepen a couple's bond---yet when she consents to a hall pass just for me (I want her to enjoy one, too), she says "I don't want to know about it or hear about it" which effectively and conveniently negates the entire concept.
She denies a desire to have power and control over the process, but I disbelieve that. I'm off balance and she knows it.
Again I'm really sorry you're going through this, Richard. Please do know that you brought some laughter when I tried to imagine a man who's "a cross between Pa Kettle and the poster guy for Dirty Old Men, trying to look a hunky version of Colonel Sanders."
Not to downplay your situation. Twelve years is a long time to be in sexless marriage. I think you need to get financially independent asap and consider leaving this situation. Sometimes we can't grow and improve our lives without making drastic, painful changes.
If your wife isn't open to opening the marriage but isn't up for ENM either, what choice is there? More pain for you or divorce.
Again, it's not my intention to tell you what to do or give you a simplistic answer, but I don't have any other solution for you but this. However, I hope talking about this has helped you.
Ok now I’ve seen how to reply directly to you! Personally. Here’s why a hall pass wouldn’t work. I only want to have sex with my husband, he only with me. Neither want to with anyone else. But there’s times neither of us want to have sex. Just no sex. In those no sex times, we may miss having sex with *each other*, but not sex in general.
As we’ve gotten older, sex is less of a priority. The times we have it, it’s actually more special and pleasurable than when we did it more often.
I’m sure as our children get older and there’s not a pandemic keeping us having little privacy, etc, we will end up having more sex.
We talk about marriages having seasons. We aren’t in a super sexy season. But we are happier with each other than we have ever been.
I wouldn’t say we are in a “sexless” marriage —just not as much as we were in the past.
I completely understand that marriages have seasons. We're not always going to be in that first three month intense honeymoon period, or even the first three years. And yes, kids do get in the way of our married sex lives. The pandemic has made things worse, too.
So I get how you and your husband may just have found yourself in a period of not having as much sex.
I'm not advocating that people *have to* have tons of sex or even that they have to give their partner a hall pass if the sex has waned in a relationship.
I've just seen a ton of people cheat on their spouses because they no longer have sex with each other. I was just offering up the hall pass idea as an option.
But for you and your husband, Melissa, you two seem pretty happy together. Cherish that closeness. We can still experience intimacy without sex.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Intimacy. Intimacy can be a big part of sex and vice versa. And when there isn't intimacy, it is hard to have a healthy relationship. I think that's why the season of less sex isn't that big of a deal because we have more intimacy now than ever.
But intimacy can have seasons too. I know of marriages that thrive sexually and lack intimacy. There can be unfulfilling marriages that are super sexual.
I can see how ethically opening up a relationship can enhance a relationship, and bolster intimacy, but not necessarily if it's an unhealthy relationship to begin with. You address this in another article.
I could not tell with your answer, but is she not wanting to have sex with you? If so, it could be because you are unemployed! That sounds harsh but it can cause resentment.
The problem I see with a hall pass is that a sexless marriage is a symptom of something. I don’t think bringing in a third party will eliminate that symptom. It could be medical, it could be emotional, it could be situational, it could be interpersonal. Getting someone else involved (unless it is a therapist—even a sex therapist—or a medical doctor) would not allow you to figure out WHY it is sexless.
Also, I don’t see sexless marriages as automatically dead marriages either. Then asexual people would never be able to be married (and they may come out later as asexual in a marriage too). And even the healthiest marriages can have dry periods due to circumstance, health, etc. And someone demisexual would not be attracted to their mate if intimacy breaks down. And I don’t think you can generalize.
I 100 percent believe that not having sex isn’t the problem. It can be a *sign* of a problem, it may not.
Rarely do I see a person complaining about a sexless marriage say they are happy with the marriage. Most likely having sex wouldn’t suddenly make them happy.
Your audacity is beyond irritating. Don't tell me you have a right to your opinion or that you're "just trying help," mainly because I asked for neither.; this is not an opinion, it's a clinical statement, the utterance of which you have no authority to make. Moreover, statements like the last two sentences are a blatant and intolerable insult to my intelligence, which I will thank you not to provide.
Since you don't have a bloody clue about how my life is or what my values are, *you* shouldn't generalize---or presume---either. I know WHY it is sexless, and that WHY is none of your business. I have told Mysterious Witt about the WHY by other means because she is my friend; you, ma'am, are not.
Also I made the assumption that she wanted you to get a job. Rereading your comment, it’s not clear to me if she is just not wanting for you to bitch or if she’s upset she’s having to support you. Again, I was talking about it more generally based on the little info I have.
I have to apologize. My comment about unemployment being a possible cause—that was to you. The rest was supposed to be in response to Mysterious asking why we thought a hall pass will or won’t work.
I didn’t mean to insult you.
My “audacity” though comes from 20 years married, having been in open relationships in the past, and knowledge of the sex work industry, plus studying to be a therapist. That all does not mean I’m an expert in *your* marriage, nor an expert at all.
I was saying based on personal experience that I would find someone less attractive if I was supporting them, if I was being forced to. And withholding sex can also be a (unhealthy, but common) tool to get the person to do what you want.
If that’s not the case here, that’s fine. But my point to Mysterious is that *why* is more important. If why you aren’t having sex any more is because there’s not a third person to have sex with, then a hall pass makes sense. If it’s any other reason, I doubt that it will fix the relationship.
If in your case, you are happy with your marriage sans sex, but unhappy ONLY because you aren’t having sex, then you are the exception to the rule. But, you do *sound* unhappy with the relationship in general.
Again, my apologies for directing the second half to you.
I wish it wasn't so difficult to step outside of a marriage. I fully understand jealousy, but I was dying inside before I cheated, and there was no way we were going to have "that" discussion. I've picked the path I've picked and I will pay for it if I have to. I do regret not being able to do it openly.
My beloved Witt, I think you know my answer.
Open it.
Fraught as it is with a number of different land mines, my partner and I have (very) briefly discussed the possibility, whether as a return to swinging, basic ENM, or outright polyamory. In that (very) brief exchange, she immediately went to Boundaryville in such a way as to preserve the slight tilt-in-her-favor of our power dynamic. Essentially, as she has done with so many such ideas, she reduced the notion to a financial issue.
A little prequel: I am currently unemployed , and not for lack of trying; when I bitched about it and confessed to being ashamed of it, my partner said, "Stop the shaming. Declare yourself semi-retired, and just find a job, even part-time, just to get out of the house and help with the bills."
And now, back to the (very) brief discussion:
When I asked about non-monogamy, she replied,"Given how we met (on a swinger site), I have no problem with it; but you can't do it with my resources."
Knowing that we live in a community-property State, I said, "Don't you mean *our* resources?"
"I'm not going to pay for you to go out on any dates, no more than you would you help pay for me to sleep with another man. You'll have to find a job to make it happen."
In a later, (much) more heated exchange, she revisited that statement, calling the underlying idea "disgusting"---she used the word three times at once.
Let's unpack this:
1. In almost every other situation, her go-to phrase is "It all comes out of the same pocket." Apparently, that is not so universal.
2. If we proceeded with ENM, her paramour might likely be the one buying dinner or the hotel room. One of our rules would be "no overnights." Regardless, I would, without heartburn, be amenable to shelling out whatever might (within reason) be necessary for her rendezvous, as a way of supporting that upon which we decided to embark.
3. Although she emphasizes her lack of sexual desire toward *anyone*, this puts her in the "catbird seat," a position of potential advantage. She can go galavanting here and there, while I stay at home and wait for a hiring, regardless of whether I can find a date.
I have to ask your opinion: is it truly "disgusting," or is she seeking a means to nip the idea in the bud?
Thanks for reading.
This is a complicated story here, Richard. I'm not sure it's my place to judge. However, since you're asking, I can see how your wife could have a problem with you spending her income on your dates with other women.
However, it also shows just how much your relationship with your wife has broken down. Like you said, in a marriage, the income is the communal property of both partners. So her income is not "her" money, but both of yours.
But the fact that she sees her income as only hers shows that there is a serious breakdown in the relationship.
Also, that you two are no longer intimate, and so many other problems you face--I'm not sure why you two stay together.
But even as I say this, I understand why people in unhappy marriages do stay together. I've been writing a lot about this lately. I get the advantages to staying together. A lot of them are financial.
But I think that avoiding the pain of a divorce is also bad for the psyche. I'm just not sure that opening your marriage will make things any better. I'm not sure that things will get better for you at all until you simply end this bad dynamic and move on.
If I've overstepped my boundaries here, I'm sorry. But this is my opinion. Sending a hug.
You didn't overstep, love. I asked, you answered.
Last night and this morning I tried to explain my wish for us to return to ENM, in whichever form we found agreeable. The "we" aspect imploded right away. She was under the impression we were to discuss our continuing efforts to enjoy sex in a way that doesn't challenge our aging bodies; she felt blindsided by the ENM subject, albeit I'm not responsible for her presumptions. Let's just say the conversation headed sideways very quickly.
I tried to clarify everything this morning. My main thesis is "I am going to have a sex life, preferably with you, but I will have one nonetheless; the clock is ticking and I'm not getting any younger." In other words, we had her 12 years of celibacy and it ends now. *Now* she says she doesn't want us to be "that forlorn old couple" at swinger events and clubs, looking for hookups and sticking out like a pair of sore thumbs. That's an extrapolation on her part fueled by two (count 'em!) examples of mid-70-ish couples where the female half was a vivacious grandmother, and her husband was a cross between Pa Kettle and the poster guy for Dirty Old Men, trying to look a hunky version of Colonel Sanders. I chose not to respond directly to that because her statistical stretches like that one only lead down yet another rabbit hole.
In her libido-less condition, looking ahead is a fool's errand; all I wanted was to get a sense of her take on the idea of either returning to swinging (12 years is enough time to get over whatever happened before) and/or seeing other people. I've read the articles about how such a practice can (counterintuitively) deepen a couple's bond---yet when she consents to a hall pass just for me (I want her to enjoy one, too), she says "I don't want to know about it or hear about it" which effectively and conveniently negates the entire concept.
She denies a desire to have power and control over the process, but I disbelieve that. I'm off balance and she knows it.
Again I'm really sorry you're going through this, Richard. Please do know that you brought some laughter when I tried to imagine a man who's "a cross between Pa Kettle and the poster guy for Dirty Old Men, trying to look a hunky version of Colonel Sanders."
Not to downplay your situation. Twelve years is a long time to be in sexless marriage. I think you need to get financially independent asap and consider leaving this situation. Sometimes we can't grow and improve our lives without making drastic, painful changes.
If your wife isn't open to opening the marriage but isn't up for ENM either, what choice is there? More pain for you or divorce.
Again, it's not my intention to tell you what to do or give you a simplistic answer, but I don't have any other solution for you but this. However, I hope talking about this has helped you.
Ok now I’ve seen how to reply directly to you! Personally. Here’s why a hall pass wouldn’t work. I only want to have sex with my husband, he only with me. Neither want to with anyone else. But there’s times neither of us want to have sex. Just no sex. In those no sex times, we may miss having sex with *each other*, but not sex in general.
As we’ve gotten older, sex is less of a priority. The times we have it, it’s actually more special and pleasurable than when we did it more often.
I’m sure as our children get older and there’s not a pandemic keeping us having little privacy, etc, we will end up having more sex.
We talk about marriages having seasons. We aren’t in a super sexy season. But we are happier with each other than we have ever been.
I wouldn’t say we are in a “sexless” marriage —just not as much as we were in the past.
I completely understand that marriages have seasons. We're not always going to be in that first three month intense honeymoon period, or even the first three years. And yes, kids do get in the way of our married sex lives. The pandemic has made things worse, too.
So I get how you and your husband may just have found yourself in a period of not having as much sex.
I'm not advocating that people *have to* have tons of sex or even that they have to give their partner a hall pass if the sex has waned in a relationship.
I've just seen a ton of people cheat on their spouses because they no longer have sex with each other. I was just offering up the hall pass idea as an option.
But for you and your husband, Melissa, you two seem pretty happy together. Cherish that closeness. We can still experience intimacy without sex.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Intimacy. Intimacy can be a big part of sex and vice versa. And when there isn't intimacy, it is hard to have a healthy relationship. I think that's why the season of less sex isn't that big of a deal because we have more intimacy now than ever.
But intimacy can have seasons too. I know of marriages that thrive sexually and lack intimacy. There can be unfulfilling marriages that are super sexual.
I can see how ethically opening up a relationship can enhance a relationship, and bolster intimacy, but not necessarily if it's an unhealthy relationship to begin with. You address this in another article.
Very complicated :)
I could not tell with your answer, but is she not wanting to have sex with you? If so, it could be because you are unemployed! That sounds harsh but it can cause resentment.
The problem I see with a hall pass is that a sexless marriage is a symptom of something. I don’t think bringing in a third party will eliminate that symptom. It could be medical, it could be emotional, it could be situational, it could be interpersonal. Getting someone else involved (unless it is a therapist—even a sex therapist—or a medical doctor) would not allow you to figure out WHY it is sexless.
Also, I don’t see sexless marriages as automatically dead marriages either. Then asexual people would never be able to be married (and they may come out later as asexual in a marriage too). And even the healthiest marriages can have dry periods due to circumstance, health, etc. And someone demisexual would not be attracted to their mate if intimacy breaks down. And I don’t think you can generalize.
I 100 percent believe that not having sex isn’t the problem. It can be a *sign* of a problem, it may not.
Rarely do I see a person complaining about a sexless marriage say they are happy with the marriage. Most likely having sex wouldn’t suddenly make them happy.
Your audacity is beyond irritating. Don't tell me you have a right to your opinion or that you're "just trying help," mainly because I asked for neither.; this is not an opinion, it's a clinical statement, the utterance of which you have no authority to make. Moreover, statements like the last two sentences are a blatant and intolerable insult to my intelligence, which I will thank you not to provide.
Since you don't have a bloody clue about how my life is or what my values are, *you* shouldn't generalize---or presume---either. I know WHY it is sexless, and that WHY is none of your business. I have told Mysterious Witt about the WHY by other means because she is my friend; you, ma'am, are not.
Also I made the assumption that she wanted you to get a job. Rereading your comment, it’s not clear to me if she is just not wanting for you to bitch or if she’s upset she’s having to support you. Again, I was talking about it more generally based on the little info I have.
I have to apologize. My comment about unemployment being a possible cause—that was to you. The rest was supposed to be in response to Mysterious asking why we thought a hall pass will or won’t work.
I didn’t mean to insult you.
My “audacity” though comes from 20 years married, having been in open relationships in the past, and knowledge of the sex work industry, plus studying to be a therapist. That all does not mean I’m an expert in *your* marriage, nor an expert at all.
I was saying based on personal experience that I would find someone less attractive if I was supporting them, if I was being forced to. And withholding sex can also be a (unhealthy, but common) tool to get the person to do what you want.
If that’s not the case here, that’s fine. But my point to Mysterious is that *why* is more important. If why you aren’t having sex any more is because there’s not a third person to have sex with, then a hall pass makes sense. If it’s any other reason, I doubt that it will fix the relationship.
If in your case, you are happy with your marriage sans sex, but unhappy ONLY because you aren’t having sex, then you are the exception to the rule. But, you do *sound* unhappy with the relationship in general.
Again, my apologies for directing the second half to you.
Apology accepted, Ms. McCarter.
❤️ 🙏
Thanks for your comment. xoxo